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Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3838
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 166.199.35.35
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 02:51 pm: | 
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Nisarga,
\podolsky\
Thanks  memory is not what of used to be
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3837
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 166.199.24.75
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 08:19 am: |
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Nisarga,
Have not read any of them
I do not generally read philosophy books - if I get a question in my head I research to see if I can find an answer or explanation from people or the net and the one thing leads to another very random study -if you can call it thatlove the internet
But I will check we books out
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Nisarga
Junior Artist
Username: Nisarga
Post Number: 126
Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 135.245.8.4
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 03:33 am: |
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some more interesting books:
Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid ( Famously known as GEB)
-- this is my most favorite book. This magnum opus from Douglas Hofstadter explains the possibility of how physical structure and mechanical processes can lead to self/mind/consciousness.
Hofstadter is just awesome. he has amazing clarity of thought and finest intellect.
I am a strange loop -- by Holfstadter
-- have not read it. could not find online edition .
Mind's eye by Holfstadter and Daniet Dennet
-- have been reading this whenever i am free
The Astonishing Hypothesis -- by Francis Crick)
-- scientific study of consciousness
-- have not read it.
please share your views if you have already read it.
} |
Nisarga
Junior Artist
Username: Nisarga
Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 135.245.10.2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 01:00 am: |
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Anand,
Have you read Schrcödinger's classic 'What is Life'? this on the Physical Aspect of the living Cell. He predicted the structure of DNA before the actual DNA was discovered by Crick and watson. |
Nisarga
Junior Artist
Username: Nisarga
Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 135.245.10.4
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 12:36 am: |
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Anand_n:forget the name of http://www.chalanachithram.com/discus/icons/quote3.gifP in EPR )
Podolsky
Shrodinger cat paradox was devised to show the strange consequences of Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3836
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 166.199.43.200
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 07:21 pm: |
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Ishan,
Have a friend who thought detachment and renunciation were the route to happiness -took a lot of back and forth to get the point across so just wanted to give you a heads up
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Sandipus12
Junior Artist
Username: Sandipus12
Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.176.105.42
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 06:22 pm: |
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Anand_n:...reality becomes supect..., etc .... uncanny similarity to our own scriptures
concept is mindboggling!! |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 68.89.188.214
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 05:46 pm: |
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Anand_n:still a student huh,you must be a kid (at 42, everyone under 30 is a kid to me )Let me give you a piece of advice...:-)
There is a reason our philosophy prescribes dharma(ethics not religion), artha(sustenance), kaama( pleasures) , moksha(enlightenment) in that order...same as the Maslow's pyramid of needs...
If you try to sidestep or take shortcuts to the top without climbing thru the steps , it is highly likely to fall into the pain mentioned by Nisarga in the lines below becomes...
Vammo, nenu grihastha dharmam vadilesi sanyasini ayipothanemonani anukuntunnaara? Antha ledandi...I am as much a normal person as it gets. Philosophical discussions ante naaku chaala curiosity anthe. Naaku aa experience ayinappudu nijamgaane I was a kid, I think I was in high school.
But yes, you are right. One has to cross all the levels before attaining moksha. No shortcuts there. |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3835
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 08:32 am: |
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Anand_n:Meditation as a tool to help you do your job well and handle life well is good - as a means to dissociate from reality, and escape into the mind can be very bad
Let me reword that ...Meditation is a tool
If used to help you do your job well and handle life well - very good
If used as a means to dissociate from reality, and escape into the mind - very bad - kind of like a drug that helps you temporarily ignore the circumstances
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3834
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 08:29 am: |
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Ishan:I had a good run until one day I saw a bright very intense high frequency orange light at the back of my head and got so scared that I literally ran away from the room . ANyhow that was not the reason I stopped doing it. I got busy with studies exams and all and never tried it again.
still a student huh,you must be a kid (at 42, everyone under 30 is a kid to me )Let me give you a piece of advice...
There is a reason our philosophy prescribes dharma(ethics not religion), artha(sustenance), kaama( pleasures) , moksha(enlightenment) in that order...same as the Maslow's pyramid of needs...
If you try to sidestep or take shortcuts to the top without climbing thru the steps , it is highly likely to fall into the pain mentioned by Nisarga in the lines below becomes...
Nisarga: It can even become an obsession in which happiness can only be yours if the necessary condition of obtaining it is completed. And so, as long as we are looking for this property, this enlightenment we are from time to time deeply unhappy and desperate. When will I finally reach the state of enlightenment?
Meditation as a tool to help you do your job well and handle life well is good - as a means to dissociate from reality, and escape into the mind can be very bad
Zindagi kya hai yeh samjhne ke liye zinda rehna bahut zaroori hai ( in the words of Gulzar) - If you want to understand life, you first have to live, and live fully, I would add
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3833
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 08:04 am: |
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Sandipus12:what is schroedingers cat paradox?
I know nothing about quantum physics
I am not an expert either - edo casual reading tappa quantum physics study cheyyaledu...But Schroedinger cat paradox gurinchi telisindi cheptanu - experts unte expand/correct cheyyandi
Heisenberg's uncertainty priniciple telusemo - it is impossible to determine the position and momentum of a a subatomic particle at a point in time with infinite accuracy... so in Quantum Physics Einstein , Rosen (EPR model antaru - forget the name of P in EPR ) a state of a particle at any given time was theorised to be a superimposition on states along a linear path in time ..since it is indeterminant...
Schroedinger extrapolated this principle to the thought experiment with a cat in an enviromentally insulated box with a little tube of radioactive material ,that could at a point trigger the spilling of a poison killing the cat...Using the EPR model of superimposition at a given point since the decay of radioactive material(cause) is indetreminant and super-imposable , the effect should be superimposable too.. that is the cat could be alive or dead in a either/or state but is alive and dead aty the same time in the superimposable theory
Akkada nunchi observer theories start avutayi- the alive or dead state of the cat can only be established once the box is opened and someone observes the state - witness and witnessed - and that the cat could be alive to a section of observers and dead to another set of observers, or can the cat be the observer...reality becomes supect..., etc .... uncanny similarity to our own scriptures
Don't know if my layman explanation made sense
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Sandipus12
Junior Artist
Username: Sandipus12
Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.176.105.41
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 02:43 am: |
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Anand ji
what is schroedingers cat paradox?
I know nothing about quantum physics |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 11:22 pm: |
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Anand_n:Started recently - been waking up earlier than needed so using that time to meditate ..that's why I asked if any one technique works better than others...not sure how long I will keep it up :-)
I havent tried different versions. I used to practice the basic meditation. I had a good run until one day I saw a bright very intense high frequency orange light at the back of my head and got so scared that I literally ran away from the room . ANyhow that was not the reason I stopped doing it. I got busy with studies exams and all and never tried it again. |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3830
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 09:50 pm: |
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Ishan:Do you meditate?
Started recently - been waking up earlier than needed so using that time to meditate ..that's why I asked if any one technique works better than others...not sure how long I will keep it up
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 09:36 pm: |
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Anand_n:Me too ...Do you meditate - if yes can you provide some details on type etc?
I used to meditate a long time ago. Right now I cant find time to do it (or may be I have become too lazy :-)). However, I do read now and then about religion, spirituality and philosophy. Do you meditate? |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3821
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 166.199.35.180
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 05:38 pm: |
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Sri_anji,
Namaste everything ok?
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Sri_anji
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Username: Sri_anji
Post Number: 2951
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 71.233.122.169
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 07:25 am: |
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Anand_n:
Namasthe sister....
Maa Nanna NTR -- Balayya
http://i44.tinypic.com/33uex74.jpg
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Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3820
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 07:13 am: |
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Nisarga:Lets the define the state first. what would it be like?
You already posted the definition in the last post
Nisarga:What then remains is emptiness, silence, a clear, alert state of perceiving that is not disturbed by the claiming of thoughts. A state in which What-is is accepted, without rejecting or accepting, without preferences. Actions still take place, but these are witnessed as are all other manifestations without identifications with them. That is enlightenment. Before the ego falls away you do the dishes. After the ego falls away you still do the dishes. Enlightenment is that close. But there is one solid difference: without enlightenment there is resistance, there are opinions and opinions unavoidably give pain. After, there are no opinions, no resistance and thus also no pain.
Nisarga:The difference between 'enlightened' and 'not-enlightened' is in whether there is identification with the silence, the emptiness, the background, the perceiving itself, or identification with the perceived objects such as ego, job, my boss, colleagues, relations, a new car, bank account, etc. Enlightenment is the falling away of the 'wrong and troublesome' identification.
Isn't this exactly what Ishan said - become the absolute - drop the rest
Nisarga:It can even become an obsession in which happiness can only be yours if the necessary condition of obtaining it is completed. And so, as long as we are looking for this property, this enlightenment we are from time to time deeply unhappy and desperate. When will I finally reach the state of enlightenment?
I agree that this can be very painful for a lot of people-especially the rush to get there - think I said this to IBV in another thread, I look at it a little differently.. like a kid on a treasure hunt(the game) towards Nirvana, my consciousness(who I see as mother Gauri) gives me clues to direct me towards it.. I skip merrily along from one clue to another and the journey is as much fun as reaching the destination
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Nisarga
Junior Artist
Username: Nisarga
Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 123.238.146.35
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 12:58 am: |
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Enlightenment, liberation, redemption, self-realization: these are all words that point to a condition about which every seeker has his own imaginings. It must be very desirable otherwise it would not be so sought so much.
The greatest misunderstanding concerning enlightenment is that it is seen as a property, that can be acquired. Something that will be added to your existence, to your life, and that is pleasurable to have. Yes, maybe the most desirable that you could possibly imagine. It can even become an obsession in which happiness can only be yours if the necessary condition of obtaining it is completed. And so, as long as we are looking for this property, this enlightenment we are from time to time deeply unhappy and desperate. When will I finally reach the state of enlightenment?
The problem lies in the fact that enlightenment is not something that is added, but is the state that remains when non-enlightenment falls of or is dropped. What remains after you move all the furniture out of your room? Right! Space, emptiness, which is needed in order to place furniture. Where was this space? The space was always already present in the room: with or without furniture, the space and emptiness are always there. But, we only notice the space when the furniture is removed. Something like that happens with enlightenment. Enlightenment is always there, it is the background, the space, the emptiness, that we are and from which we witness the non-empty. Nothing can be said about emptiness: it has no dimensions, you can't take hold of it, you can't understand it, or contain it, it has no properties, doesn't weigh anything, there is absolutely no way to perceive it. But nevertheless, it is a necessary condition for creating objects in the emptiness, if we want to perceive anything at all. Manifested objects are of an infinite variety. Anything that can be perceived against the background of emptiness is an object, also the thoughts that flutter by like clouds in the sky. What is there between two thoughts? Nothing, emptiness, the background from which we perceive, perception itself. All thoughts taken together, form in another object that we call the body, an ego. So, that ego is made of a series of thoughts, reactions to thoughts, that are thoughts themselves in their turn, preferences (nothing other than a thought that some perception is better, preferable to some other perception), rejections, wishes and longings. All these thoughts arise out of the emptiness, in the emptiness, and there is one more thought added namely that we are that complex of thoughts. That is called identification. We forget that perceive out of the emptiness, yes are the emptiness. That is silence, because there is nothing more to think or to talk about. But, we think we are that one who is perceived, instead of the perceiving itself. That is where the confusion, the pain and the big problem arise. Because then, who seeks when we go seeking for enlightenment? Certainly not the silence and the emptiness, because these are silent and still. Thus it is the complex of thoughts, the ego, that proceeds with thinking and longs not to think anymore. But that is a thought in itself, it is a mirror-like tunnel of infinite regression that has no end. Because longings are thoughts and thus you can not long to have no more thoughts; because after all as soon as you long for that you are thinking.
But what then is enlightenment? Once again: the emptiness, the silence about which there is nothing to say. Actually the giving of a name (in this case silence and emptiness) is already saying too much. But that stillness and emptiness is there all the time, has never been away and is in everyone. As an experience for reference you could some time look very carefully at what happens in the space of time between two thoughts. Then you experience the silence. You are not unconscious, but there are no thoughts, only clear presence. That does not mean that you know what the state of attention is, the silence, but you can experience it. So what enlightenment comes down to is not the adding of a quality, but just the other way around the falling away of a quality; the continuous, uninterrupted continuity of the stream of thoughts. What remains when that falls away is the state of enlightenment. And that is thus there always as a background for everyone, it has never not been. As soon as the ego falls away enlightenment is what remains. But watch out: longing for enlightenment makes the ego stronger and makes it seem as if it is further away. Seems, because it is always just always available as background. The state of enlightenment is thus not reachable by the wish for it.
It is a changed stated of witnessing in which identification with the witnessing takes place instead of with the witnessed. The difference between 'enlightened' and 'not-enlightened' is in whether there is identification with the silence, the emptiness, the background, the perceiving itself, or identification with the perceived objects such as ego, job, my boss, colleagues, relations, a new car, bank account, etc. Enlightenment is the falling away of the 'wrong and troublesome' identification.
If the ego falls away, then that 'thing' that actually only chatters in terms of good, bad, desirable, undesirable, what is nice and what isn't, pleasant and unpleasant, etc., falls away. Check it out; go to a terrace and follow the various conversations from a distance. An estimate is that 90% of the conversations consist of communications about what went wrong, how dumb my boss was, what a sourpuss my colleague is or how mean, how smart Pete himself is, how stupid Jan is, how my daughter just complained, how my father had no attention for me, what a dumb plan the municipality has again, the horribly high taxes, the much too low benefits, too warm, too cold, too wet or too dry and so forth, and so forth. Imagine that this chattering falls away, isn't it then also not so that the preferences and judgments fall away? And if there is no for or against, no judgments, would we not be able to consider that to be a state of neutrality? What then remains is emptiness, silence, a clear, alert state of perceiving that is not disturbed by the claiming of thoughts. A state in which What-is is accepted, without rejecting or accepting, without preferences. Actions still take place, but these are witnessed as are all other manifestations without identifications with them. That is enlightenment. Before the ego falls away you do the dishes. After the ego falls away you still do the dishes. Enlightenment is that close. But there is one solid difference: without enlightenment there is resistance, there are opinions and opinions unavoidably give pain. After, there are no opinions, no resistance and thus also no pain.
But how you can let the ego fall away? There is the trap again: this question is a thought that can be perceived and is part of the ego. If the ego keeps itself busy with discontinuing itself, it is like squeezing a balloon. The air does indeed disappear from the spot where you squeeze, but a bigger bubble appears somewhere else. What can we do then? Only if the insight is there that there is nothing that can be done, can the identification with objects (thus also thoughts) dissolve. The actual question that matters is; am I the perceiver of objects/thoughts or do I identify myself with objects/thoughts? As soon as there is identification, then there is a relation of pain/pleasure bound together, just as the head and the tail are the two sides of a coin. Identification arises because we think that we can have pleasure without its opposite pole, pain. If you consider that deeply you will see that it is not possible. Moreover our searching for enlightenment comes out of that: we want only pleasure without pain. But that can never happen, that is a myth, it is even a lie! Enlightenment arises when the longing for pleasure (and with that pain) is solved without any action of the will and acceptance of What-is replaces it. Acceptance of What-is, without resistance, without opposition, without opinion. That is enlightenment and lasting happiness.
the article is at
http://www.ods.nl/am1gos/am1gos4/index.html?jks_mythe_us.htm l~mainFrame
Does it make sense? |
Nisarga
Junior Artist
Username: Nisarga
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 123.238.146.35
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 12:20 am: |
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Anand_n:I asked this in my previous post too - there are many who claim to have experienced it - I have met some of them - so how can you conclusively say it cannot be done..Isn't it akin to a blind man arguing that colors do not exist and cannot be seen :-)
Lets the define the state first. what would it be like? how do we want it to be? UG and Zen buddists say it is not a state one really wishes for? they say there is nothing to achieve or feel.
UG says the "I" ends there. there no pain, no happyness in that state. it is a neutral state. when I say no happyness, I mean the happyness that may arise from 'I". if there is bliss that arises from the physical condition in that state...but there needs to be 'I' to feel that.
is this a state we wish for to be at peace with the things and with , to deal with the worldly things peacefully!! |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3818
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 11:28 pm: |
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Nisarga:
A lil more on non= sensory perception - Have you heard of the term Indigo children - believed to be the next stage of human evolution with psychic and paranormal abilities..these individuals are said to be highly perceptive,exceptionally intelligent and empathetic ...
Though I have my own reservations about the belief, I find it interesting that the term indigo children comes from the theory that these kids have an indigo aura...Switch gears to Kundalini Yoga , the color given to Ajna Chakra is Indigo - Ajna chakra is the seat of the intellect
Ofcourse science diagnoses this as a disorder, ADHD or some other and tries to put these kids on Ritalin and other medication to make them fit the "norm" ...
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3816
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 11:09 pm: |
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Ishan:No anand I live in Texas.
Me too ...Do you meditate - if yes can you provide some details on type etc?
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 11:05 pm: |
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Anand_n:Are you in India ? BTW, you do not have to end each post so formally with Thanks :-)
No anand I live in Texas. DB ki kotha kada anduke konchem formal anthe. Ok no more thanks. |
Anand_n
Side Hero
Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3815
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:59 pm: |
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Ishan:Fugue is a mental disorder
Someone in this DB also once said Nirvana is a mental disorder Think it was Iamim - depends on our viewpoint I guess
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:54 pm: |
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Anand_n:Now to look at the other side of the argument , but that could also happen due to dissociative fugue - a usually temporary psychiatric condition causing temporary amnesia of everything a person is...
Whoever says that, thats a big time baloney. Fugue is a mental disorder - Moreover, none of the symptoms appear in meditation which is a perfectly healthy practice practiced by healthy people.
thanks. |
Anand_n
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Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3813
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:51 pm: |
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Ishan:thanks.
Are you in India ? BTW, you do not have to end each post so formally with Thanks
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:48 pm: |
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Anand_n:light is a creation withing the Absolute but the absolute exists in darkness :-) Thought it made a lot of sense :-)
:-) May be because the infinite universe is pitch dark!!! absolute exists in darkness? may be the other way round :-).
thanks. |
Anand_n
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Username: Anand_n
Post Number: 3812
Registered: 02-2008
Posted From: 65.86.156.226
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:47 pm: |
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Ishan:And for the people regularly meditate, they often experience such beyond-the body/mind states.
True
Now to look at the other side of the argument , but that could also happen due to dissociative fugue - a usually temporary psychiatric condition causing temporary amnesia of everything a person is...
Some people attribute UG Krishnamurti's" states" to dissociative fugue ...
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Ishan
Junior Artist
Username: Ishan
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2009
Posted From: 66.139.11.42
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 10:35 pm: |
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Nisarga:How do we know there is such a thing as absolute or maya. their are again products of our thoughts,concepts. the very thought has to solve the problems it created for itself. we have no other tool.
Not everything we believe 100% to exist can be proven. There are many people who claimed to have reached the state of absolute and those were the ones who actually propounded these concepts. For us those are theories, but I dont see much risk in believing them.
Even in our lives we experience in miniature form. Just for example, from time to time we get lost in some deep thoughts staring at something oblivious of our surroundings. Those are the moments when we forget ourselves. And for the people regularly meditate, they often experience such beyond-the body/mind states. |
Anand_n
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Nisarga: brain is just antenna or it generates consciousness, brain is necessary to realize consciousness.
Do not disagree with that
Nisarga:
non mental perception? you mean physical/sensual perception?
I mean non-sensory perception - I think that is the key - if with the sensory perception today we cannot realize it , maybe we need additional perception skills to do
Nisarga:
!!??. there is no absolute, no enlightenment. one cannot experience it.
I asked this in my previous post too - there are many who claim to have experienced it - I have met some of them - so how can you conclusively say it cannot be done..Isn't it akin to a blind man arguing that colors do not exist and cannot be seen
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
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Nisarga
There are too many people who clAim to have experienced the absolute -how would know it does not exist
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Nisarga
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Anand_n:Not necessarily, the reason I posted the thread and the video was it expounds the theory that consciousness does not reside in the brain
whether brain is just antenna or it generates consciousness, brain is necessary to realize consciousness.
Anand_n:so my take is you have to increase the range of non-mental perception
non mental perception? you mean physical/sensual perception?
Anand_n:Coming to light and dark - came upon an interesting paradigm recently ...so far I had always read/heard people talk of realization in terms of seeing the "light" (enlightenment) ..this particular Guru gave a different perspective...When you reach God realization and can be the absolute - you are in total darkness - light is a creation withing the Absolute but the absolute exists in darkness :-) Thought it made a lot of sense
!!??. there is no absolute, no enlightenment. one cannot experience it. |
Anand_n
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Nisarga: the purpose of a system or the organization of its constituent parts?
purpose emerges form the organization. if the organization can refer to itself with what it represents, self emerges.
does a system really have clear independent parts? do all the parts work in concert for the purpose?
Applying analogic reasoning The whole exists - the purpose is survival of the whole - it will make its constituent parts do whatever it needs to ensure its own survival...
Is there a defined organization/structure - maybe , maybe not, or it could be a perpetually evolving structure
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Anand_n
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Nisarga:same way it may require more sophisticated brain to realize more things. to better correlate the phenomena.
Not necessarily, the reason I posted the thread and the video was it expounds the theory that consciousness does not reside in the brain ..so my take is you have to increase the range of non-mental perception- a sophisticatd brain will still be needed to interpret that perception
Ishan:Advaitha says its impossible. Because senses, reasoning and logic have limited powers. Its like lighting a candle in the darkness - light can spread to only certain distance - beyond that its still dark. If we want to experience the absolute, we have to be the one.
I do not think Advaitha says its impossible - infact it very clearly says you can realize the absolute- you are right , though , it is said to happen when you come to the God-realized state of Aham Brahmasmi
Coming to light and dark - came upon an interesting paradigm recently ...so far I had always read/heard people talk of realization in terms of seeing the "light" (enlightenment) ..this particular Guru gave a different perspective...When you reach God realization and can be the absolute - you are in total darkness - light is a creation withing the Absolute but the absolute exists in darkness Thought it made a lot of sense
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Nisarga
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Anand_n:Hypothetically, it depends on how much influence individual free will has on the purpose of the whole - right ? One cell working contrary to the body does not impact it much does it ?
may be the range of free will is determined by boundary conditions. like a gas molecule in a container can be said to be in free motion as long as it does not touches the walls of the container. it cannot go out of the container normally. The container can itself be a part of another system. and so on. .
But the question is which one is first? the purpose of a system or the organization of its constituent parts?
purpose emerges form the organization. if the organization can refer to itself with what it represents, self emerges.
does a system really have clear independent parts? do all the parts work in concert for the purpose? |
Nisarga
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Pplsuck:Anand, Nisarga,
Good morning
I think it is night for you now . good evening. |
Nisarga
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Ishan:Nisarga - COre is the absolute and the projection is Maya or Illusion. The problem is we cant realize absolute living underhttp://www.chalanachithram.com/discus/icons/quote3.gif Maya.
How do we know there is such a thing as absolute or maya. their are again products of our thoughts,concepts. the very thought has to solve the problems it created for itself. we have no other tool.
Ishan:If we want to experience the absolute, we have to be the one.
yes. being in that state is like death. there are no dynamics in that conditions. the system must have reached its absolute equilibrium state. no movement is possible. I do not think such a state exists or if we really want such a state. |
Nisarga
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Anand_n:This is the root - since we are constrained by our limited range of perception - so is there a way to expand that range is the million dollar question..
1) if it is to understand the universe better -- how it works, how various phenomena are interconnected, the causal chain --, it may require new theories, radical concepts. it will be stretch in our mental realm only. if this can be achieved with the engineering of neural structure in brain, its good.
2) if we assume there is a reality which we cannot experience with our experiencing structure( the neural circuitry that is responsible), with our senses, then it requires stretch in this direction. our brain should become more sophisticated.
in lower level animals brain if not sophisticated enough to understand things to the extent humans can. same way it may require more sophisticated brain to realize more things. to better correlate the phenomena. |
Ishan
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Nisarga:what are projections and what is core?
Nisarga - COre is the absolute and the projection is Maya or Illusion. The problem is we cant realize absolute living under Maya.
Anand_n:so is there a way to expand that range is the million dollar question...
Advaitha says its impossible. Because senses, reasoning and logic have limited powers. Its like lighting a candle in the darkness - light can spread to only certain distance - beyond that its still dark. If we want to experience the absolute, we have to be the one.
thanks. |
Anand_n
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Neel:Iam bumping this thread as it was in the state of going into Archives
Thank you , much appreciated
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Neel
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Iam bumping this thread as it was in the state of going into Archives |
Anand_n
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Nisarga-Ishan: right. This is because we try to define the stuff which is undefinable with our concepts and try to refer to this context from that higher context that we are trying to define
This is the root - since we are constrained by our limited range of perception - so is there a way to expand that range is the million dollar question...
Nisarga:not sure how better it is than panpsychism.
Panpsychism works on the assumption of non-emergence, doesn't it
ex nihilo, nihil fit - Nothing comes out of nothing
Advaita also works on non-emergence but states it in the converse..
Poornam Adah Poornam Idam,Poornaat Poornam Udachyate
Poornasya Poornam Aadaay,Poornam Evaa Vashishyate
The universe was always complete in itself and remains complete
So I agree there may not be much of a difference ...
\
Nisarga:but what is the guarantee that we do not mess up the higher purpose if there is one with our free-will?
Hypothetically, it depends on how much influence individual free will has on the purpose of the whole - right ? One cell working contrary to the body does not impact it much does it ?
However, if they form unions and revolt we have a bigger issue I am being flippant but I do see your point
Pplsuck:Good morning
Good morning to you
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
Pplsuck
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Anand, Nisarga,
Good morning |
Nisarga
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Ishan:Projections are part of the core
what are projections and what is core?
Ishan:we always come to a dead end and fall in an inescapable loop because of the limitations caused by reasoning. It all comes down to the platform
from which we are judging.
right. This is because we try to define the stuff which is undefinable with our concepts and try to refer to this context from that higher context that we are trying to define. |
Ishan
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Anand_n:Ishan,
I define God as all that exists - visible and invisible, perceptible and imperceptible...
I do not find the theory of projections of God or us being characters in God's dream appealing :-)
Projections are part of the core. They are not different entities. So it is still Non-dualism. As Vivekananda describes, if the absolute is like an infinite ocean, we are the waves and tides projecting out of it and finally falling in to it. However, we cant ignore different levels of manifestations of the absolute, even if they are illusions. Because when we logically analyze advaita, we always come to a dead end and fall in an inescapable loop because of the limitations caused by reasoning. It all comes down to the platform from which we are judging.
"us being characters in God's dream appealing..." - not familiar with that concept.
thanks. |
Nisarga
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Anand,
Do not know much about Sankhya but it does not seem to be different. it seems to be the same stuff as saying there is something like spirit/soul stuff which acts on matter to realize life. back to square.
not sure how better it is than panpsychism.
no way can a higher level self(if assumed there is one) know about the inner level selves other than as its mental concepts.
we or our consciousness do not know how it feel like to be a cell our of our body. we, with our knowledge/thought process, may be able to understand one fine day that what is the role/place of us in the grand scheme of things/processes that we are part of. we may better our survival environment. but what is the guarantee that we do not mess up the higher purpose if there is one with our free-will?
in that case is it not like our free-will Vs higher-purpose? |
Anand_n
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EK,
Mottaniki 100 kottinchamu
Ishan,
I define God as all that exists - visible and invisible, perceptible and imperceptible...
I do not find the theory of projections of God or us being characters in God's dream appealing
Mrhyderabad,
Same way that the moon helps earth , the earth has impact on the solar sysem and so on progressively ...everything has an impact on the rest of the universe - nothing exists in a vaccuum independently
Sri_Anji,
Good - redbull plus jack daniel lekunda thinking, just kidding
aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale
jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
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