| Author | Message | ||
     Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8288 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Good one  aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Sandipus Junior Artist Username: Sandipus Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2008 Posted From: 123.236.131.85 Rating: N/A |
âFree will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.â Scott Adams American Cartoonist | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8287 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Yeah was planning to watch the movie only after listening to the song, simply yet beautifully written aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Ipc302 Moderator Username: Ipc302 Post Number: 6716 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Did u happen to hear this song from guzaarish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Od7ImjZJA very nice lyrics...the writer tried to compare life with making a cup of tea... | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8286 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
I am not sure - I am talking my great grandmother's generation - before movies or TV - but you know what, now that I think of it, even then there was enough mythology - for e.g. Vishwamitra flying Trishanku through space towards heaven...to be able to visualise the scenario and associate the samadhi state as a flight heavenwards I stand corrected
Excellent point - and it is true not just in dreams but in conscious state too fitting a new experience into an existing pattern in the brain can cause some fairly different interpretations - just like the same written words mean differnt things to different readersaa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8284 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Or something in between , that the randomness is caused by free will , even if in a limited context ? Is it the multiple entities making unpredictable decisions causing a perceived randomness ? Talk to you later : Have to go out aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Nisarga Junior Artist Username: Nisarga Post Number: 320 Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 115.184.73.172 Rating: N/A |
yes. it is a long standing unresolved known paradox in philosophy it seems. yes, we are either puppets of genes or at the mercy of random forces . but, the a critical question would be is there truly random process !!? is apparent randomness due to vastness/in-computability/infinite variables involved!? | ||
| Nisarga Junior Artist Username: Nisarga Post Number: 319 Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 115.184.73.172 Rating: N/A |
difficult to answer ...just try to conjecture . yes possibly genetic memory carried over from evolution as gotach says . but would it require memory to be coded in the same format in all the species? how would it be when the code is replayed in the env of human mind !!? we get the feeling of flying, we don't see bird flying. our mind owns that code. there is a nice article about something like "how would it be to be a bat" in the book "Mind's eye" by Daniel Dennet and Douglas Hofstadter. as for OBE, space travel/seeing stars is something we see in movies or tv shows. we have indirect experience of it( by watching it). in OBE or dreams, do we see something we have never experienced? more likely No. we have read that OBE can be induced. there are experiments doing this as i read. ok. presuming that our experiences have physical and mental representations in our brain, if for whatever reason, there is some distortions in the representations..what would happen? we make sense of things by connecting new things/experiences by connecting to or in the context of existing things. the distortion or random movement of the brain/mind's header over the representations may be interpreted or sensed or experienced weirdly in the form of OBE or dreams . i dont have any definitive views about it though. | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8283 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Yes- think we have had many iterations of this discussion Wish I had saved them all - it would have been interesting to see the difference in my own perception with each round  But what you said is a paradox in itself - if our will is too free to be willed, the "free" in free will does not apply to us And if we negate the presence of free will all sense of responsibility for actions goes out the window everyone is a puppet controlled by random /or predetermined forces - not something palatable to a species that is not happy just existing Like Descartes said , I think, therefore I am aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Nisarga Junior Artist Username: Nisarga Post Number: 318 Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 115.184.73.172 Rating: N/A |
Thx. I am good.
I think what he means is if free-will is free from deterministic mechanism and result of indeterminate events, it would be too free to control. in other words...we cannot will our will ( which we discussed earlier i guess). we dont know what we will or why we will something, it would be as good/bad as it is controlled by deterministic world ( genes for e.x). | ||
| Basky_indya Megastar Username: Basky_indya Post Number: 20176 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 68.206.252.136 Rating: N/A |
congrats bhayya, pmp vachesindha Gigantic Techno fuctional Mega Blockbuster Magnum Opus BOMMA | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8280 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
PM questions ani thread veyyandi - I will answer when I can but I think there are many PMs here who can answer too aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Chiru_fan Hero Username: Chiru_fan Post Number: 14339 Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 108.12.166.143 Rating: |
Akka, don't want to hijack this thread, but I have few questions related to Project Mgmnt... can I open a separate thread calling you or you don't want to talk much about it, as this DB is like a get away from your day to day work! CHIRU - SACHIN - FEDERER | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8278 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Wonderful saying Reading "Thus Spake Zarathustra" ny Nietzsche - and he touches this point a lot Good to see you back How are you ?
Not sure if I got that part - is he saying the indeterminate events cannot be completely free-willed or that they cannot be free-willed at all ?
I don't have an answer - I am hypothesising As kids - we look up in th sky and see birds flying - if the dreams are past that cognition point that it is possible to be free of gravity - then it could just be our imagination , desire to soar like the birds The more curious part is the visions of astral travel that people experience as part of OBEs(Out of body experiences) or Samadhi states This feeling of travelling in space thru though stars and planets has been repeated to me by a few people who have experienced it.Its not like they set out consciously thinking about space travel - where does that vision come from ? I doubt if it is a subconscious creation of the brain - it has to be an external signal or some deeply encoded memory - per what I can think of Nisarga, Any thoughts on the above ? aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Nisarga Junior Artist Username: Nisarga Post Number: 317 Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 115.184.111.225 Rating: N/A |
GUNTHER S. STENT Professor Emeritus of Neurobiology University of California, Berkeley MMANUEL KANT, the eighteenth-century German philosopher, and Niels Bohr, the twentieth-century Danish physicist, both noted that driving human reason too far in the analysis of deep problems often leads to irresolvable contradictions. Kant (1934) epitomized his insight into this fundamental limitation of human reason with his aphorism "Out of timber so crooked as that from which man is made nothing entirely straight can be built." And Bohr (1949) drew attention to the limits of human reason by citing what he referred to as an "old saying." According to that old saying, there are two kinds of truths: one kind is an ordinary truth , which is so simple and clear that its opposite is obviously false, while the other kind is a deep truth , whose opposite is also a deep truth. Kant's and Bohr's ruminations on the ultimate limits of human reason arose from their encounter of paradoxes inhering in our rational faculty. One kind of paradox presents a proposition that seems selfcontradictory or incompatible with generally accepted opinions. An example of that kind of paradox is the claim made by Aristarchus of Samos in the third century b.c.e.that our obviously stationary Earth rotates about our obviously moving Sun.Another kind of paradox presents two paired propositions, either of which, when considered alone, is supported by apparently sound arguments. But when the paired propositions are considered together, they turn out to be mutually contradictory. An example of the paired proposition kind of paradox is the religious quandary to which the seventeenth-century German philosopher and mathematician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1710) gave the name theodicy. The first of the paired propositions of the theodicy paradox asserts that God is all-powerful, righteous, and benign, whereas the second proposition asserts that the world that he created is full of evil and misery. St. Augustine resolved the theodicy paradox, by arguing that what appears to be evil turns out to be a necessary element in the perception of the Good. It is a necessary element because God has to allow the existence of evil in order to provide mankind with a counterexample that makes the Good shine more brightly, and thus makes it more easily perceptible to the dim-witted humans he created. A second example of the paired proposition kind of paradox is provided by the belief in the possibility of a perfect, or Utopian , society (Schaer, Clayes, and Sargent, 2000). According to Isaiah Berlin (1971), it was Niccolo Machiavelli who first showed that this fervent belief is mistaken, in that Utopian social visions invariably pair two mutually incompatible aims. These aims are freedom and justice for the individual and law and order for the society. Thus a Utopian society cannot be implemented, not because it founders on the frailties and imperfections of mankind, but because every ideal society is meant to satisfy paradoxical , or incompatible, goals. One of the most troublesome paradoxes regarding the human condition arises from our intuitive belief that persons are morally responsible ,i.e., that they can be judged as praiseworthy or blameworthy for the will that motivates their actions. One criterion that is generally considered necessary and sufficient for holding a person morally responsible for an action is that the person freely willed to undertake that action.Such attribution of freedom to the will confronts us with the Paradox of Moral Responsibility , since the idea of willing something freely is logically incompatible with another innate intuition of ours, namely, determinism.According to determinism, a network of causal connections determines everything that has happened in the past and will determine everything that is going to happen in the future. Hence, any event (including our willing something) would be the effect of a chain of prior events that were themselves determined by yet earlier events. Freedom of the will would thus be a mere delusion. But we humans cannot abandon our intuition of determinism just for the sake of saving the concept of moral responsibility, since determinism provides the rational foundation for our concept of an orderly world and thus for our scientific understanding and our successful technological manipulation of nature. Contrary to our intuition, however, determinism actually turned out not to prevail universally. According to the physics of quantum mechanics developed in the middle of the twentieth century, there do occur some indeterminate events in the world's atomic and subatomic realms that are not fully determined by the past. Hence, if human willing were among those (quantum-mechanically) indeterminate events, persons could sometimes have willed differently from how they did will. However,such indeterminately willed actions would not have been under the person's control either, no more than they would have been had they been fully predetermined. Thus, from the moral point of view, such indeterminate actions could be neither praiseworthy nor blameworthy. The concepts of the Free Will of morally responsible persons and of the deterministic causation of all of the world's events jointly exemplify the kind of deep truth of which Bohr had said that its opposite is a deep truth as well.Moreover, the failure of philosophers to find an acceptable resolution of the contradictory nature of such paradoxical pairs of deep truths shows that, in accord with Kant's epigram, the timber from which man is made is so crooked that nothing entirely straight can be built from it. To find a place for ourselves as creatures endowed with Free Will in a world whose events are governed by determinism, the ancient Greek philosophers saddled us with the existential headache that bears the name mind-body problem.It deals with the question whether there is not some basic difference between our body--the target of the forces of determinism--and our mind--the seat of our Free Will. If mental processes, including willing, were ordinary bodily functions, a view that came to be known as monism , they would be ruled by the forces of determinism, and there could be no such thing as freedom of the will. But if mental phenomena were more than, or basically different from, ordinary bodily functions, a view that came to be known as dualism , some mental processes, especially willing, might not be governed by determinism. In that case, the will could enjoy the freedom required for the resolution of the Paradox of Moral Responsibility. Of the two foremost moral philosophers of classical Greek antiquity-- Plato and Aristotle--who dealt with the mind-body problem, Plato favored dualism and Aristotle favored monism. In the mid-seventeenth century, René Descartes (1637, 1650) proposed a Platonic type of dualist solution of the mind-body problem. According to Descartes, human beings are composed of two distinct kinds of substances. One kind Descartes supposed to be the substance of the body, or res extensa , which, being material,is subject to determinism. The other kind Descartes supposed to be the substance of the mind, or res cogitans , which, being non-material, would not be subject to determinism, and from which we would derive our autonomous Free Will, and hence moral responsibility for our actions. By the latter part of the eighteenth century, however, the explanatory success of Isaac Newton's physics in the natural world had discredited the Cartesian theory of substance dualism. But rather than abandoning dualism, Immanuel Kant put forward a radically different dualist resolution of the Paradox of Moral Responsibility, to which I will refer as Epistemic Dualism (Stent, 1998, 2002). Kant (1934) presented his epistemic dualist resolution of the Paradox of Moral Responsibility in his masterpiece, The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant's Epistemic Dualism is based on the doctrines of his revolutionary epistemological theory of Critical Idealism , to which he himself had referred as his "Copernican Revolution in Philosophy." The diagram shows that the point of departure of Kant's theory of Critical Idealism is Plato's insight that our direct contact with things is limited to their appearance in a sensible world of phenomena. We perceive these phenomena by means of our sensory faculties, such as sight, smell, hearing, and touch. According to Kant, we manage to make mental sense of the phenomena perceived by our senses by interpreting the sources of the phenomena as material things, or 'noumena', of an 'intelligible' (that is, comprehensible) world. For this interpretative process we resort to transcendental (Platonic) concepts, or categories , which exist a priori in our rational faculty, rather than being inferred a posteriori from our experience.Thus, Kantian Critical Idealism is a blend of Aristotelian materialism and Platonic idealism. Kant's Critical Idealism is materialist , in the sense that it posits the existence of external material sources of the phenomena that we perceive in the sensible world. Kant referred to these sources as 'noumena'. However, Kantian Critical Idealism is idealist as well, in that the intelligible world is of our own mental construction, based on our application of transcendental categories (or ideal Platonic Forms) to the perceived phenomena. As shown in the diagram, Kant's Epistemic Dualism flows readily from his theory of Critical Idealism, for it envisages our coexistence in two metaphysically distinct realms of the intelligible world: the natural/amoral realm and the non-natural/moral realm. The noumena of both realms are products of our own construction, based on our interpretation of the phenomena we perceive in the sensible world. We construct the noumena of the natural/amoral realm of the intelligible world by use of that part of our pure reason that Kant designated as 'pure theoretical reason'. (As used by Kant, the adjective 'theoretical' denotes the concern of pure reason with the difference between truth and falsehood.) For the construction of the noumena of the natural/amoral realm, pure theoretical reason resorts to amoral (that is, value-free), natural categories, such as space, time, and causality. The noumena of the natural/amoral realm are material objects, such as stars, stones, and animals. Their existence in the world is governed by the laws of nature. The category of material objects includes also human beings, insofar as Homo sapiens is one of the species in the class of mammals of the vertebrate phylum of the animal kingdom. We construct the noumena of the non-natural/moral realm of the intelligible world by use of that other part of our pure reason that Kant designated as 'pure practical reason'. (As used by Kant, the adjective 'practical' denotes a concern of pure reason with moral decisions.) For the construction of the noumena of the non-natural/moral realm, pure practical reason resorts to value-laden, non-natural/moral categories, such as good and evil, sacredness, and Free Will. The noumena of the non-natural/moral realm are human subjects, or persons. Kant's Epistemic Dualism thus resolves the Paradox of Moral Responsibility, for it recognizes that our perceptions of the causes of the actions of a human being are fundamentally different when we encounter that being in the context of the natural/amoral realm of the intelligible world or in the context of its non-natural/moral realm. In the context of the natural/amoral realm--especially in a biological or psychological setting--we regard the person as an unfree object whose actions form part of the happenings determined by the laws of nature. But in the context of the non-natural/moral realm--especially in a judgmental or jurisprudential setting--we regard the person as a free subject whose actions are autonomously freely willed by her soul. As Kant argued in his Critique of Pure Reason , we cannot abandon either of these mutually contradictory (i.e., paradoxical) contextually given points of view. On the one hand, we cannot help regarding human beings as phenomena of the sensible world, and using our pure theoretical reason to deem them noumenal objects in the amoral/natural realm. On the other hand, our innate belief in the existence of Free Will is a precondition for morality, which has its roots in the non-natural/moral categories of pure practical reason. Hence Free Will neither can be, nor needs to be, established as a fact of nature, since persons who believe in the freedom of their will are by this very fact alone effectively free. Thus, depending on the context in which we encounter a person, we must consider her actions either as determined by causal necessity or as freely willed. In putting forward his Epistemic Dualism in the latter part of the eighteenth century, Kant had anticipated the Epistemic Dualism of 'complementarity' of quantum physics, which had been put forward by Niels Bohr (1928) in the first part of the twentieth century. In his use of the term 'complementarity', Bohr did not refer to its ordinary, everyday meaning, namely the aspects of two different parts of a thing that make that thing a whole, such as the two "complementary" polynucleotide chains that make the DNA double helix a whole (as we might recall in this year of the Golden Jubilee of its discovery). Rather, under Bohr's meaning, complementary aspects of the world give rise to rationally irreconcilable concepts, whose inconsistency can never be demonstrated empirically. Bohr introduced his complementarity concept upon the advent of quantum mechanics and its epistemological paradoxes, such as the incoherent description of the electron in terms of a wave as well as in terms of a particle. According to Bohr, the wave-like propagation mode of electrons, on the one hand, and their particle-like mode of interaction with matter, on the other hand, each express an important feature of the phenomena associated with electrons. These features are 'complementary' aspects of reality because, although they are mutually contradictory from a conceptual point of view, there are no observational setups under which they can be shown to be in direct contradiction empirically. The reason for this is that mutually exclusive observational setups--that is to say,different contexts --are required for demonstrating either the wave or the particle nature of electrons. Bohr's complementarity concept thus showed that Kantian Epistemic Dualism is not restricted to metaphysics, which is generally regarded as a soft discipline in which anything goes. As it turned out, Epistemic Dualism applies also to physics, which is revered as the hardest of hard disciplines, one that brooks no irrational inconsistencies. Contemporary neurobiologist investigators of the human brain tend to consider freedom of the will as a pseudo-problem and its discussion as a waste of time. Most of these neurobiologists are Aristotelian monists. They confidently expect that recent advances in brain research will soon allow us to account for all mental processes, including willing, in terms of lawful neurobiological mechanisms. They regard the dualism doctrine as a crackpot idea that is--or ought to be--dead and gone. However, the latter-day obituary notices of dualism merely reflect the failure of the believers in monism to fathom the metaphysical depth of the Paradox of Moral Responsibility. While monism may be an adequate way, or maybe even the only way, to deal with mind as a natural phenomenon, monism cannot give a satisfactory account of mind as a moral phenomenon. This is why dualism turns out to be alive and well and likely to be with us as long as there are people who live as social beings. Given the kind of creatures that we are, we have no choice other than to consider the beastly and the divine--the natural and the nonnatural-- as complementary aspects of the person. This is the essence of the paradoxical nature of the mind that our own species, Homo sapiens ,happened to draw in the lottery of organic evolution. References | ||
| Gotcha Side Hero Username: Gotcha Post Number: 7361 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 24.13.71.222 Rating: |
pinni may be you can answer this. why do as a kids we dream as if we can fly in our dreams. i see that this is a common dream for all people. is it genetic memory related to our bird cousins like ur saying earlier in this thread.? This real estate is for sale. | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8273 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Avunu, chala loyal fan base Prati post ki dishti teesi , dishti chukka petti veltunnaru  aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Gandhiguevara Hero Username: Gandhiguevara Post Number: 12329 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.210.96.94 Rating: N/A |
akka meeku yee DB lo intha mandi fans vunnarani theleedhu...min 11 singles maintain chesthunnaru... | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8272 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
That answered my question
I think I need more data to support this
Agree if you look at it from that angle - a balanced molecule is effectively deletion /negation of charge When you said deletion- I read erasure of memory - which does not happen aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Ishan Side Hero Username: Ishan Post Number: 6285 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 68.89.170.12 Rating: |
External stimulus can cause only memory. But memory is the one that causes the dreams. Hence the relation between external stimulus and reaction to the dream is indirect. And oh yes, dreams are definitely proactive actions of the brain. The job of the stimulus is to form the memory, rest is taken care by the brain. that closure of the loose end is nothing but deletion. there is nothing opposite there. Yes, blind kids do dream. Dreams need not be due to the reactions of optical phenomenon only. It could be auditory, olfactory too. Even the pain of hunger and thirst can induce dreams. But the dreams wouldn't be visual though. To understand the whole picture its important to understand the segments. Nevertheless, I was not talking segments here - as the chain of dream genesis starts in the brain. Know where you're going in life....you may already be there | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8269 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
That presumes that the information got into the brain in some form of fashion -right ? And how would that happen if not for learnt info?
Actually - I think dreams do the opposite - instead of deleting it - they bubble up that info to the top and ensure conscious registration- and potentially close the open end And the incomplete thughts too are generated by an external stimuli - right Now if a thought for some reason leaves the brain out of equilibrium, and the brain tosses it up to restore that equilibrium - it makes perfect sense. But then the original stimulus has to be what destabilised the equilibrium - and that is again external
Same thing addressed in the above point - brain determines - yes - but it is reactionary to an imbalance caused externally...I do not think dreams are pro-active actions of the brain
But they do have an environment that they perceive - wonder if kids born blind dream - if so do they see stuff ? That would blow my theory apart that we can only retrieve memories in dreams, or continue thoughts we started when awake Another theory I do have is that when asleep, we have turned other activity in the brain off , which helps it retrieve the subconsciously/genetically coded information better - which we may not recognise as something we have 'consciously' input to our brain I think we are going in circles I am trying to go back the causality chain of thought to the origin - while you are looking at a segment of that chain where the brain starts reacting Good discussion though aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Ishan Side Hero Username: Ishan Post Number: 6284 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 68.89.170.12 Rating: |
This is incorrect. I believe in the theory (which was many times confirmed by my experiences !) that Dreams are the ways to delete irrelevant and INCOMPLETE information. Some times when we are awake, we think about something just for a fraction of second and leave it for whatever reason (may be because we are too afraid of thinking about it or some thing else). This kind of incomplete info is not understood by the brain and it thinks its unnecessary and deletes it. Brain doesn't want to over burden it self. Belief systems might generate dreams too, but they are not the only factors. Even infants and animals also get dreams and i believe they don't have any belief systems. Of course yes. But they are not directly responsible for the dreams, Its brain that determines how and when to dream. I too have an inclination on this theory, but have to read and ponder more about it to come to a conclusion Well, obviously we both have different definitions of intelligence then ! Know where you're going in life....you may already be there | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8268 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
True - and I think it requires intelligence to do that aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8266 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Is that not what I said - that genetic coding is internal ? I am just saying that everything else is driven by external stimuli... we may not always be able to recognise the sequence of events.
As to dreams - I don't know if you read or recall my thread on visions/hallucinations - wondering why we only get dreams/visions relevant to our belief systems/environs- there is a connection to what is in memory there And memory is populated mostly by external stimuli, of what we have read, seen, heard or imagined Though a dream maybe the brain dumping - the need to dump has to be triggered by something or the brain purge would be a regular nightly batch job running at a set time I doubt it is really random and uninitiated. Or we pick up signals from the "thoughtsphere" around us that UG Krishnamurthi talked about(external again) Also , I have a feeling there is some sort of genetic memory too ( what the scriptures call memory of previous births - the evolutionary memory encoded in genes) The first time I heard of the connection of serpents in dreams and their procreational symbolism the first thing that came to mind was the reptilian brain in MacLean's Triune brain concept - may be totally unrelated but I found it intriguing aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Ishan Side Hero Username: Ishan Post Number: 6282 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 68.89.170.12 Rating: N/A |
thanks bro. every one is happy. Baby is keeping me very busy - no sleep at nights Know where you're going in life....you may already be there | ||
| Basky_indya Megastar Username: Basky_indya Post Number: 20060 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 68.206.252.136 Rating: N/A |
Ishan bhayya, Congrats!!.. how is the Baby and Mother doing?? Gigantic Techno fuctional Mega Blockbuster Magnum Opus BOMMA | ||
| Ishan Side Hero Username: Ishan Post Number: 6281 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 68.89.170.12 Rating: |
The moment we are awake from the sleep, we keep learning - most of the times we are unaware of it. I will have to totally disagree with this. Yes, there are certain occasions when your mind is stressed, you will get dreams that are pertinent to the stress, but at least for me dreams never had any stimulation. I believe in the theory that dreams are a ways of the brain to shed off unnecessary information. Anyways, even if external stimuli can cause dreams and nostalgic moments, the reactions are evoked only after the brain passes the sensory information to the reaction centers of the brain. Yes, but that's still internal stimulation. Know where you're going in life....you may already be there | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8264 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Yes - add love to the mix and you have the panacea - Live, Laugh, Love Have a fun weekend aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Senapathy Comedian Username: Senapathy Post Number: 1599 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 137.131.212.40 Rating: N/A |
I know. Serotonin and GABA levels hold key to depression. Most of the antidepressant drugs restore the imbalance. On the contrary, happy and healthy lifestyle with tons of good time and laughter keeps the balance naturally | ||
| Senapathy Comedian Username: Senapathy Post Number: 1598 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 137.131.212.40 Rating: |
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| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8263 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Totally agree with that - we have the ability to condition the brain as well as we do our body Its always Nature + Nurture - never one by itself aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8262 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Yeah - unfortunately learnt all that while researching why a friend was suffering from severe postpartum depression  However, the brain, emotions, thoughts, reflexes and means to conditioning them is a fascinating subject aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Senapathy Comedian Username: Senapathy Post Number: 1597 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 137.131.212.40 Rating: |
I currently believe that genetic coding and behavioral intelligence based on external stimuli are two different things. Like - Nature gives you the body network (genetics) and it is you how you use it. Antha genetics meeda vadilesthey oka Hilter and oka Gandhi elaa avutaaru | ||
| Senapathy Comedian Username: Senapathy Post Number: 1596 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 137.131.212.40 Rating: N/A |
Pinni.. Here is my take The brain has several sections and each section is designed for various purposes like sensory reflex, motor reflex, memory, cognition etc. However there is one part of the brain thats perpetually active till death, they are the ones that keep us alive - I mean in consciousness. They have a separate chemicals/receptors for that fucntion. My take is that those neurons respond to our thoughts/consciousness. Coming to memory. The neuroscience field is not there to explain it yet. Recently, I attended a wonderful talk where they were trying to decipher memory. In brain cells, the chemical signals are changed to electical signals by ion channels. These channels are regulated by Sodium, calcium and chloride. The Ca2+ ions hold the key for the activation of the memory cells. When our consciousness/thought neurons fire up these memory neurons, the calcium channels pop-up and send out the memory information to the rest of the brain as electrical signals. In addition, the brain is regulated by myriads of chemical receptors. And some of them are synthesized in the body, like hormones anna maata. The chemical balance in the body also hold key to the neuronal signaling. My 2 cents on triggering of memory/thoughts | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8260 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Let's pick this discussion up again sometime after the holidays HAve a good long weekend aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8259 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Fair enough - my take was any learning, even passive, needs some form of intelligence You are looking at slightly differently and mostly from a human intelligence measures perspective
Dreams are also triggered by external events through the days - very rarely totally spontaneous - and in those cases we probably do not remember what set the chain of thought off The only thing that comes close to not having a perceptible external stimulus is probably visions/hallucinations And I suspect they have some form of external triggers - even if it is only the pressure of breath on the soft palate causing certain hormones to release and the brain responding to those Our genetic code, to a large extent, decides the chemical balance in our brains - as a result deciding the range of emotions/thoughts we feel/think and all known non-drug measures to change that involve using physical triggers - either changing the blood flow, oxygen flow or the electromagnetic thought energy flow - to either control the release of these hormones or the brain's reflexive reaction to it If at all the brain is initiating thought - it has to come from the genetic programming - where else would it come from ? aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Ishan Side Hero Username: Ishan Post Number: 6278 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 68.89.170.12 Rating: |
Per definition, Intelligence entails the capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding including aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. What you are calling genetic intelligence entails only the learning process i.e. genetic memory in the form of genes, which is again a very passive learning. The other components are missing here. The martial artist can change his subconscious reflexes 'at will' not according to the need for survival which is the major drive for evolution. The sensory reflex actions can be controlled consciously but genetic memory can not be or may be need not be. Memory is a passive process whether it is genetic or sensory, but reasoning is an active process. memory might not be a good example. How about Dreams? dreams involve spontaneous bursts of incoherent neuronal signals to which we react unknowingly. We dont need external stimulus here. Know where you're going in life....you may already be there | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8252 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Probably not Anduke ekkuva alochinchatam manesi pelli chesukomannadi aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Senapathy Comedian Username: Senapathy Post Number: 1595 Registered: 01-2009 Posted From: 66.75.19.11 Rating: |
Kottaga babu puttina ayanaki, inka pelli kaani naaku intha deep questions avasaramaa   Will get back to you soon. Leaving for work. | ||
| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8251 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 167.24.104.150 Rating: |
Madhyalo entry iste alage anipistundi Part 1 chusi Part 2 ki ravali ... http://www.chalanachithram.com/discus/messages/125/130078.ht ml?1290562305 Missing Nisarga , IBV and MS here... aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale | ||
| Gandhiguevara Hero Username: Gandhiguevara Post Number: 12295 Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 98.210.96.94 Rating: |
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| Anand_n Side Hero Username: Anand_n Post Number: 8250 Registered: 02-2008 Posted From: 173.174.176.93 Rating: |
Ishan/Senapathy, I guess I threw you off course with the question on how thought is created - I was not talking about the physiology, adi telusu I was thinking of more of the causality...the origin of thought Ishan, You said memory/nostalgia.What is memory ? A recorded set of data hard coded into the brain. By itself it is at equilibrium.If it can initiate thought, it becomes part of the system that define intelligence - right ? Which to my mind is true - being part of intelligence piece The larger cache of memory you have , the better you can process information thrown your way.Brain cannot decode sensory signals unless it has a base set of pattens in memory to compare against- as proven by the failure of the artificial eye to restore 20/20 vision Now the flipside of the question- a lifetime martial artist has patterns coded into his memory - he has learned actions by rote till they became reflexes - he does not have to deliberate what to do when someone raises an arm - he just strikes out in appropriate fashion.So the brain optimised by moving repetitive actions into the memory, recategorizing it as a 'conditioned reflex' to reduce processing stress on itself Same as 2x2 is for most people now - a reflexive response not a deliberated one. But, it did need intelligence to adapt to that point Why do you think genetic coding is not the same ? That it required generations of genetic intelligence for a creeper to instinctively react to a change in environment to maximise its chances of survival ? Hence my question on whether you consider amygdala reactions 'intelligence based " or not? Coming back to the source of thought - a memory being at equilibrium should not by laws of nature trigger chemical reactions to create imbalance - so what is triggering it...the source has to be something else - right? Ofcaourse the memory does defrag and rearrange itself every time we write something to it - but that is an external stimulus Nostalgia for most part is stimulated externally - sensorily-either by presence or absence - something you see,hear or taste or smell that triggers the memory chain aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu ik aise gagan ke tale jahan gam bhi na ho, aansoo bhi na ho,bas pyaar hi pyaar pale |
